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medusa
This week in "What the hell?" news: 

Over here we have Will Shetterly calling Obama and some other successful black politicians "house negroes" on Ta-Nehisi Coates' blog, using the artifice of "I think this is what Malcolm X would have called them" to do it.  Also he asks what the local policy is on using the N word, because apparently Malcolm X would not be content with just having the word "negro" put in his mouth by a white person.

And over here Rose Lemberg talks about being interviewed about her magazine Stone Telling, and then receiving creepy othering followup questions in comments that turn out to secretly come from one of the interviewers.  Shweta Narayan has some further discussion here and here.

Comments

( 43 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]fledgist wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 03:26 pm (UTC)
You're not the only one made uncomfortable by Shetterly's decision that he's the heir of Malcolm X in much the same way that Glenn Beck is the heir of MLK.
[info]mrissa wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 03:38 pm (UTC)
Yes. This.

I mean, good heavens.

I mean.

I feel slightly uncomfortable when I say, "I think Grandpa would have liked this." When I am talking about my own grandfather and, say, a turkey sandwich.

And I forget who it was that said you know you've made God in your image when He hates all the same people you do.

Even when they are not divine, making major historical figures into one's sock puppets is just not on.
[info]ashnistrike wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 04:13 pm (UTC)
making major historical figures into one's sock puppets is just not on.

Well said.
[info]fledgist wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:43 pm (UTC)
Oh, absolutely.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 08:39 pm (UTC)
+1
[info]browngirl wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:19 pm (UTC)
Even when they are not divine, making major historical figures into one's sock puppets is just not on.

*copies down*
[info]al_zorra wrote:
Oct. 29th, 2010 12:18 am (UTC)
Why, yes, I do agree with you, dear F. and Mary and you others I don't recognize (and surely don't recognize me). Funny, ain't it, that we'd agree in this area. What is it with our kind anyway -- what is our kind anyway?

Love, c.
[info]hotcoffeems wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 03:35 pm (UTC)
Ha, i just commented on WS's cluelessness on [info]maevele's post.

BOTH of those are just incredible. When people speak of an overweening sense of entitlement for oneself, there ya go. You'd be embarrassed for them, but they have no sense of embarrassment so it's wasted effort.
[info]txanne wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 04:48 pm (UTC)
Some people's children, oh my sweet loving Jesus.
[info]fledgist wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:46 pm (UTC)
Will Shetterly appears to have a penchant for the intromission of his pedal extremity into his oral cavity. It is amazingly impressive.
[info]txanne wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 07:02 pm (UTC)
Lots of us were broken by Racefail. Most of us grew back better. Few of us were driven permanently insane by it.
[info]vassilissa wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 06:38 am (UTC)
He was actually like that before Racefail. I remember him on Usenet. I don't remember him being racist and believing in class being the one true oppression back then, but I do remember him shocking people who knew him in RL by being so unremittingly awful whenever he was connected to a modem.
[info]txanne wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 11:39 am (UTC)
Really? Oh dear. I haven't known him all that long. What a pity LJ doesn't have a killfile.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 01:28 pm (UTC)
When I met WS at 4th street I was impressed by how super nice and easygoing he was and it took me a while to realize it was the same person who'd caused dustups all over Making Light and Boing Boing*. PNH and WS had an epic throwdown about race and Katrina (with Will's position being "stop talking about race and Katrina" and Patrick's being basically "WHAAAA&&^*#()^@^*FFUUUU" except more articulate than that). So the problem has been around for a while.

*the BB thing wasn't about anti-racism, though, it was about defending China's regime in Tibet. He does know how to pick 'em.
[info]txanne wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 01:38 pm (UTC)
Ah! I never followed BB's comments (and then their giant redesign turned me off them forever). I wonder how I could have missed the ML dustups--probably because that was when EvilBoss was making me miserable, so I stayed away from online misery as much as possible. 4th St was my first significant exposure to him...so you can imagine how shocking I found the online Will!
[info]redbird wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:14 pm (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks as though Will invokes his family's connection to the Civil Rights struggle only when he wants to attack either individual blacks for being too mainstream/capitalist, or when he's arguing with people who are speaking out against racism today.

If he's drawing on that material to call out white people for racism, or to discuss tactics, I haven't seen it; to be fair, I'm not reading his blog, only his comments on other people's blogs and journals. ("Freedom of speech is a moral absolute" is not a tactical assertion; "if we try to control speech, the rules will be used against us" would be.)

Also, "the Klan hated my father" is not an argument for a particular act or position today, even if it sounds like one. Credentials, at best, prove good will; they don't prove correctness.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:16 pm (UTC)
I think you have this exactly right.
[info]dharma_slut wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:19 pm (UTC)
I don't think you're missing a thing, there.

The man is a festering mess.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:28 pm (UTC)
Please dial down the personal stuff, given that he can't respond here - thanks :)


Edited at 2010-10-26 06:33 pm (UTC)
[info]dharma_slut wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:39 pm (UTC)
Ah, sorry, that was shorthand for "The man was sacrificed to his father's principles and he is a good example of what happens to children who are pulled into fights in which they have no agency."

I speak as one of those myself. I and my sster were fairly lucky in that our parents did their best to keep us out of active participation when we were young and helpless. But it's taken me four decades to even begin to repair my participatory will.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:58 pm (UTC)
As someone who participated in at least one right-to-life march as a child, I sympathize!
[info]trinker wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:53 pm (UTC)
Apart from the anti-Islamophobe writing he did in EMoon's journal, and Brad Torgesen's, I have seen nothing from WS but self-aggrandizement and attacks on poeple speaking against racism.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:32 pm (UTC)
If he repeatedly said "we should all be working to overthrow capitalism because that, and only that, will make racism go away" that would be annoying (and incorrect, in my view) but it wouldn't offend me*. Unfortunately in recent years he seems to be working arduously against possibly-capitalist-POC-who-object-to-racism, instead of against capitalism. Which works out to working arduously in favor of racism. Sigh.

*upon consideration, I believe it would offend me, because I think it's harmfully incorrect, but it wouldn't make my head explode.

Edited at 2010-10-26 07:02 pm (UTC)
[info]trinker wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 07:30 pm (UTC)
. Which works out to working arduously in favor of racism. Sigh.

Directly said so in so many words to him recently[1] (before MoonFail), seemed to have an effect, and now we're back at this.

Done done done.

[1] In an epically long back and forth at nellorat's journal.
[info]liminalia wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 07:55 pm (UTC)
And oddly, he defends Moon and criticizes WisCon for "silencing" her in the comments here.
http://www.newsok.com/texas-author-un-invited-as-convention-guest-of-honor-over-remarks-on-islam/article/feed/204951
[info]trinker wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 08:12 pm (UTC)
That's been his tack ever since the announcement was made. He's been going all over the 'net flogging that line. I don't know whether it's self-serving promotion, trying to get publicity, or some strange compulsion. It's very, very disturbing. If I were his friend, I'd be arranging an intervention.
[info]juliansinger wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 08:39 pm (UTC)
He seems to have modes where he's not so focused, and modes where he is. I had a theory it was connected to times when he was in the throes of writing something, but I'm not sure it tracks well.

Sigh.
[info]juliansinger wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:20 pm (UTC)
On the one hand, one's life does color one's experience, and how one's upbringing and culture affect one's poetry is an interesting question.

On the other hand, Andy Miller is evidently an asshat and a skeeve, and there's definitely a point where "one's culture of birth affects one's life" runs into "this is skeevy and you are a skeeve."

(Also, Will? No.)
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:34 pm (UTC)
He's certainly behaving skeevily. Perhaps he's a lovely person in other contexts, but I would have to ask him several personal questions to be sure.
[info]juliansinger wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 06:59 pm (UTC)
Snrk.

(More specifically to what I said, it's really bad journalistic behavior, ethically, to obfuscate your name and then ask questions in another identity. )
[info]trinker wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 07:32 pm (UTC)
I've had people tell me that he's quite charming and not at all obstinate like this offline.

That used to mollify me, but really - it's not *how* he argues online that's the problem. It's what he's expressing. So his offline behavior doesn't reassure me at all.
[info]pixelfish wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 09:33 pm (UTC)
What I don't get is the idea that online life isn't part of real life and isn't as hurtful. Sure, you can walk away from any conflict, but that sometimes comes at a cost.
[info]trinker wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 09:45 pm (UTC)
There seems to be a big cultural divide between people who see online as "real", and people who see online as... "unreal", I guess. People who troll online, who'd never do anything like that offline, etc.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 10:15 pm (UTC)
It's also worth noting whether the people who say "X is nice offline" are all in a group that X doesn't tend to pick on when online, either.
[info]trinker wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 12:38 am (UTC)
Funny, that.
[info]txanne wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 11:41 am (UTC)
Data point: he recently picked on me online, and I'm one of the people who has defended his offline niceness.
[info]redbird wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 12:21 am (UTC)
That sort of disjunct goes back since before there was an online: back when fandom was paper, conventions, and club meetings, there were people who were known as being nice or polite in person and aggressive assholes on paper, or vice versa. Some people dealt with those people by associating with them only in whichever venue they were pleasant in; others did their best to avoid them altogether. But it seems a bit like saying "he's all right as long as he doesn't drink" about someone who has no intention of abstaining from alcohol. ("S/he is sane except on this one topic" may not be as bad, depending on the topic: the execution of Charles I is easier to avoid than feminism or cars.)
[info]vassilissa wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 06:42 am (UTC)
the execution of Charles I is easier to avoid than feminism or cars.

And suddenly I'm seeing Sh*tt*rly as Mr Dick from David Copperfield.
[info]rivka wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 05:51 pm (UTC)
I'd urge that, instead of playing this kind of game where we seek out quotes to buttress the particular analysis of Malcolm which we like. I'm writing specifically against that--not just for Malcolm X, but for everyone.

It is, as I've argued before, necromancy and comes from an unwillingness to accept people with all of their wrinkles and complications. It comes from a desire to make history into a comforter under which we so sweetly slumber in our ideology of choice.


Ta-Nehisi Coates is AWESOME.
[info]icecreamempress wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 03:34 am (UTC)
Yes. When I feel like I can't possibly adore him any more, he comes along and writes something as amazing as that, and I find new adoration reserves previously untapped.
[info]leahbobet wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 08:20 pm (UTC)
I feel like this is almost a little disingenuous, but sometimes I really wonder if people have enough to do with their time.
[info]marydell wrote:
Oct. 26th, 2010 08:40 pm (UTC)
Oh god yes.
[info]icecreamempress wrote:
Oct. 27th, 2010 03:33 am (UTC)
Instead of making my "You Are Not My Teachable Moment" ribbons available, I'm going to make them mandatory.

( 43 comments — Leave a comment )

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[info]marydell
Mary Dell

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